Carpenter not an ace?

[cardsfan643]

seaver41 said:

This was really their first break out years. Please, don't even say Suppan's name when discussing aces. The guy is a one d**n lucky bum who took advantage of an over-eager lineup. Maddux could ring up K's, how else could he get 3,000. Glavine was an ace for only a few seasons. After which he became the lesser of the Big Three.

I meant to point out that velocity isn't everything.

Schilling has Beckett and Dice K on his staff with him. They have far more potential to be dominant. Glavine is a different story. There's El Duque (who's not been a SP for as long), Perez (a project), Maine (still in development), and Pedro (recovering).

I'm talking about last year. Schilling was defintely a rock in that rotation. That is a characteristic of an ace IMO. Dice K wasn't on the team, and Beckett was giving moon shot after moon shot.

I wouldn't say never. He's expected to come back stronger. I don't see him having another Cy Young season in him, but if he could put up something like a 14-8 3.30 ERA in 2007, I'd still consider that pretty good for a guy who went through what he did.

I guess stranger things have happened.

[cardsfan643]

Doublestix, want to add your two cents? Are Marlinstroll and I the only ones who think Carp is an ace?

[Zack Attack Troll]

I have nothing to add to your arguement. As far as I'm concerned, Carpenter is a bonafide ace and one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball.

[Fish Troll]

Yep look like we are the only crazy one in this board somehow.

[cardsfan643]

Thank you. On that note, I am done with this conversation. It's getting late here in the midwest.

[Fish Troll]

seaver41 said:

cardsfan643 said:

What constitutes a dominating aurora? Hm... let's think...

Aura. Not auroroa.

1) Pitching at high speeds?
Consistently hits 95-97mph

He's losing speed. And there are guys who throw harder.

2) High strikeout totals?
184

He was 6th in the league and 10th in the majors. Last year he was much better.

3) Low Batting Average Against?
.235

He had a better one last year

4) Low Earned Run Average?
3.09

A good ERA but considering he pitches in a weak division, doesn't mean so much.

5) Steps it up during playoffs?
Game 2 vs. NYM: 5 INN, 6 H, 5 R, 5 ER, 4 BB, 1 K, 92 pitches
Game 6 vs. NYM: 6 INN, 7 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 0 BB, 4 K, 72 pitches

He gave up 5 runs in a pitcher's park and got a no decision. He lost in Game 6 to Maine.




What does that even mean?

Ten good pitchers...

1)Santana
2)Halladay
3)Oswalt
4)Carpenter
5)Webb
6)Zambrano
7)Sabathia
8)Wang
9)Bonderman
10)Schilling

It means that there are not many dominant pitchers today.

I'd argue with 4, 5, 8, 9, and 10 on being dominant. And Zito isn't even on my list.


Even though I hate Derek Lowe, look what he says here:

"In my opinion, there are very few true aces," said Lowe, the Dodgers' Opening Day starter the last two years. "I saw Pedro in his prime and that, to me, is a true ace. A phenomenal dominator of a game. "

Here were Pedro's numbers from his peak years. Look at 1997 to 2003.



Also take into consideration that from 98 to 2003 he was in the AL East in a hitter's park. Whereas Carpenter is in one of the weakest divisions in baseball in a much more neutral ballpark (it still favors hitters more, but not so much as Fenway).

When Carp gets numbers like those for several contiguous seasons, I will call him an ace.[/quote]
Ok now your talking about HOF pitchers and not Ace pitchers. To me a Ace pitcher is consider to be in the top 30 most dominating pitcher in the game today (since their are 30 teams).

[Josh]

Carpenter right know is an ace, no question about it, but in the future, as soon as by 2008, I see him declining. He's 34 already. It's too bad he didn't pitch like this his whole career, he might have been a HOF.

[cardsfan643]

Carpenter is 31, not 34.

[seaver41]

marlinstroll said:

Ok now your talking about HOF pitchers and not Ace pitchers. To me a Ace pitcher is consider to be in the top 30 most dominating pitcher in the game today (since their are 30 teams).

But Carp never had numbers like those, ever. He's had one great season last year. That was it.


Carp will be 32 a month into the season. He's exiting his prime.

[joey]

I take it back Carp is an ace.

The ace of the STL pitching rotation, that is.

[cardsfan643]

He had a good season last year relative to how everyone else did. He is finally healthy. His numbers earlier in his career don't mean shit. I'm arguing that right here, right now, he is a bonified ace.

I'm not saying Carpenter is necessarily HOF. I'm just saying that he should be considered an ace.

[cardsfan643]

joey said:

I take it back Carp is an ace.

The ace of the STL pitching rotation, that is.

Carpenter is more of an ace then Wang could dream of being.

Like I've been saying over and over again. The only three better aces right now are Santana, Halladay, and Oswalt.

[joey]

Yea Carp had more K's and lower ERA, but less wins, groundballs and such as Wang.

Carp had the lower ERA in the NL Central, fairly weak division. Wang only posted about 0.60 points higher in ERA in the AL EAST of all places.

[cardsfan643]

Then where the f*ck is all of the "only had one good year" crap that people have said about Carpenter? Wang hasn't done sh*t before this year.

You're right, wins are everything. It's so true that Trachsel was better than Jered Weaver because Trachsel had more wins. Groundballs??? Who cares? Carpenter isn't a groundball pitcher.

The division argument is weak. It's not like the Cardinals only pitched him against the Pirates and Cubs, and Wang only pitched against the Red Sox and Blue Jays. Carpenter took his licks when the team didn't score runs.

Carpenter=ace

[joey]

Have it your way. On any contending team, he is a 2nd starter. Am I able to have my fu*kin opinion? Man. Carpenter is the best pitcher ever. Dave Duncan is the best pitching coach ever. Tony LaRussa has the best sunglasses even at night games ever. Happy now?